Mackenzie Valley Wolf vs Scott American Bulldog

[Wyatt]

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Both at peak weight.

[Bolushi]

If someone sold me a "working American Bulldog" and a wolf came over and killed it, I would shoot the breeder and end his entire bloodline.

[lycaon]

A Mackenzie Valley wolf is simply too big, it not only will tower over the dog but it could kill it in one bite at that size disparity.



For a size refence, this is a 65 pound male eastern wolf. 
 

[Bolushi]

Jun 16, 2023 3:44:55 GMT lycaon said:

A Mackenzie Valley wolf is simply too big, it not only will tower over the dog but it could kill it in one bite at that size disparity.



For a size refence, this is a 65 pound male eastern wolf. 
 

Aren't Scott Ambulls around 60-100lbs, averaging around 80lbs?
80lb American Bulldog vs 110lb MV wolf... doesn't sound like a big issue to me.
With a 25-60lb bull & terrier yes, I agree. An American Bulldog just seems too big to be so susceptible. If an Ambull and wolf are going for each other's heads I think it's more likely the Ambull gets it first.

[lycaon]

That 65 pound wolf would be taller than an 80 pound bulldogs; so an 80 pound bull dog vs a 110 pound wolf results in the dog being dramatically smaller in regards to height. Height is a huge advantage in a fight, and the wolf is the more effective animal when it comes to a rapid strike. The bulldogs advantage against other dogs comes from the fact it can control a fight from an unfavorable position and slowly work it way to victory through a battle of attrition. A cougar would be a better opponent for a bulldog because they will flail and tire themselves out. The wolf on the other hand will bite and crunch down on the dog. To reference USA president and avid hunter, Theodore Roosevelt:

"A wolf is a terrible fighter. He will decimate a pack of hounds by rapid snaps with his giant jaws while suffering little damage himself; nor are the ordinary big dogs, supposed to be fighting dogs, able to tackle him without special training. I have known one wolf to kill a bulldog which had rushed at it with a single snap"

Now I don't think the wolf would kill "our" bulldog this quickly, especially since the bulldog in the reference was likely a much smaller animal. However, we cant dismiss how the gripping dog style doesn't appear to work well against a wolf, in particular one that is larger than itself.   

[Hardcastle]

Jun 17, 2023 3:40:33 GMT lycaon said:

That 65 pound wolf would be taller than an 80 pound bulldogs; so an 80 pound bull dog vs a 110 pound wolf results in the dog being dramatically smaller in regards to height. Height is a huge advantage in a fight, and the wolf is the more effective animal when it comes to a rapid strike. The bulldogs advantage against other dogs comes from the fact it can control a fight from an unfavorable position and slowly work it way to victory through a battle of attrition. A cougar would be a better opponent for a bulldog because they will flail and tire themselves out. The wolf on the other hand will bite and crunch down on the dog. To reference USA president and avid hunter, Theodore Roosevelt:

"A wolf is a terrible fighter. He will decimate a pack of hounds by rapid snaps with his giant jaws while suffering little damage himself; nor are the ordinary big dogs, supposed to be fighting dogs, able to tackle him without special training. I have known one wolf to kill a bulldog which had rushed at it with a single snap"

Now I don't think the wolf would kill "our" bulldog this quickly, especially since the bulldog in the reference was likely a much smaller animal. However, we cant dismiss how the gripping dog style doesn't appear to work well against a wolf, in particular one that is larger than itself.   

I do agree with this to a significant extent.
Height is one advantage and one wolves know how to use. I don't think it's a coincidence that the dogs designed to regularly deal with wolves, whether we talk about wolfhounds or kangals, are very very tall.

Bulldogs are vulnerable to a "skull snipe" from a wolf that also is gonna be pretty good at evading the bulldog's "heat seeking" method due to the bulldog's relative lack of speed. Dodging and sniping big snaps, etc.

A bulldog is poorly equipped to just "keep up" with a wolf.

However, there are also benefits to being way shorter at the same weight, IF a bulldog DOES get hold of a wolf, that proportional weight difference is gonna be a big part of the reason the bulldog will easily topple the wolf over onto it's back, sprawl over it and maul it. An 80 lbs bulldog is massively stronger than a 80 lbs wolf that towers over it, and I'd say it is also stronger than a 115 lbs wolf that REALLY towers over it. But yeah as that wolf size goes up and up it's skull is getting bigger and bigger and those skull snaps get more and more nasty. The greater height is also coming with better reach, to evade the grip of the bulldog and safely launch it's "missile" snapping bites.

So yeah. If I owned a scott bulldog a mackenzie valley wolf isn't something I'd like to be sending my dog at. I've said before that even though I believe a puma beats a wolf definitely, I consider the wolf riskier to good gripping dogs than the puma.

An optimal wolf dog I think would have a good portion of bull but be mixed with as much or more tall sighthound. To nullify the height advantage and also to gain the speed to keep up with the wolf's movements.

[Bolushi]

Well we do have that Amstaff that beat the much larger (in frame at least) wolf in a cage fight in some 3rd world country...

[Hardcastle]

I definitely think bulldogs CAN win against wolves, but Lycaon makes a good point that wolves can be very very hazardous.

Who is more likely to win is still up for grabs IMO, I'm open minded but I do consistently argue that control beats finishing ability more often than the other way around, whether its a boxer with a killer ko punch against a solid collegiate wrestler, or a wolf with lethal biting power against a bulldog. I lean slightly bulldog, but find it a very very dangerous and hazardous challenge.

This is also what can happen with lethal striker vs elite grappler-


There's never one outcome (except for SBT vs caracal), but if you run it back a thousand times, I think the strikes glance off and miss before control is secured by the grappler, slightly more often. That could change depending on the quality of the bulldog, a very slow sluggish shitty ambull (which vast majority are these days, terrible deterioration in that breed in only 2 decades) might just never get control and always be sniped to death. But the better ambulls like I used to see... slightly lean with them over a wolf.

[Bolushi]

Would you guys call these Ambulls good?

I'd say for modern standards yes. For past standards, eh, not terrible but not the best either.
Though I believe those Ambulls would cross good to a sighthound, they look pretty leggy.

[Hardcastle]

Jun 19, 2023 4:46:25 GMT Bolushi said:

Would you guys call these Ambulls good?

I'd say for modern standards yes. For past standards, eh, not terrible but not the best either.
Though I believe those Ambulls would cross good to a sighthound, they look pretty leggy.

Yeah like "fine, but not great". I used to see photos of ones lunging on chains that tethered them to their tree/house and they had bodies like shredded game dogs, only a bigger wider head and shorter muzzle. You could just tell they were very serious. Most now look like "plush" pets, EVEN the ones you see actually lugging boars or doing pp or whatever, I just never see ones that have that hard serious working dog look. It's hard to articulate what I mean but when you see it you know.

Those in your pic could definitely be used as ingredients to make great dogs.

[Bolushi]

Jun 19, 2023 5:26:05 GMT Hardcastle said:

Jun 19, 2023 4:46:25 GMT Bolushi said:

Would you guys call these Ambulls good?

I'd say for modern standards yes. For past standards, eh, not terrible but not the best either.
Though I believe those Ambulls would cross good to a sighthound, they look pretty leggy.

Yeah like "fine, but not great". I used to see photos of ones lunging on chains that tethered them to their tree/house and they had bodies like shredded game dogs, only a bigger wider head and shorter muzzle. You could just tell they were very serious. Most now look like "plush" pets, EVEN the ones you see actually lugging boars or doing pp or whatever, I just never see ones that have that hard serious working dog look. It's hard to articulate what I mean but when you see it you know.

Those in your pic could definitely be used as ingredients to make great dogs.

Does this remind you of those?

[Hardcastle]

Jun 19, 2023 5:34:11 GMT Bolushi said:

Jun 19, 2023 5:26:05 GMT Hardcastle said:

Yeah like "fine, but not great". I used to see photos of ones lunging on chains that tethered them to their tree/house and they had bodies like shredded game dogs, only a bigger wider head and shorter muzzle. You could just tell they were very serious. Most now look like "plush" pets, EVEN the ones you see actually lugging boars or doing pp or whatever, I just never see ones that have that hard serious working dog look. It's hard to articulate what I mean but when you see it you know.

Those in your pic could definitely be used as ingredients to make great dogs.

Does this remind you of those?

Not really, but looks a solid little unit that could lug a bull. That dog reminds of what working boerboels actually looked like in the 70s, white with patches coloration and all.

[Wyatt]

Jun 17, 2023 23:19:28 GMT Hardcastle said:

I definitely think bulldogs CAN win against wolves, but Lycaon makes a good point that wolves can be very very hazardous.

Who is more likely to win is still up for grabs IMO, I'm open minded but I do consistently argue that control beats finishing ability more often than the other way around, whether its a boxer with a killer ko punch against a solid collegiate wrestler, or a wolf with lethal biting power against a bulldog. I lean slightly bulldog, but find it a very very dangerous and hazardous challenge.

This is also what can happen with lethal striker vs elite grappler-


There's never one outcome (except for SBT vs caracal), but if you run it back a thousand times, I think the strikes glance off and miss before control is secured by the grappler, slightly more often. That could change depending on the quality of the bulldog, a very slow sluggish shitty ambull (which vast majority are these days, terrible deterioration in that breed in only 2 decades) might just never get control and always be sniped to death. But the better ambulls like I used to see... slightly lean with them over a wolf.

For some reason in ava comparing wrestling is never something I do. For example to me a bulldog is just a weird, unusual, slow, domesticated wolf who specializes in subduing/subjugating/wrestling dangerous/hazardous animals. I view the wolf as a wild, intelligent, experienced, intimidating, predatory, completely wild carnivoran.

I don’t view a bulldog as stronger as a wolf, I never got that. I more see the bulldog has an advantage with its grip and slow but wide build.

[Hardcastle]

Well it is factually definitely stronger. The slowness could be an issue. I don't feel good about the prospect of a bulldog (and I mean a hardcore working bulldog) because it's just not as quick as I think you need to be to really keep pace with a wild animal. It is literally designed to lug a cornered bayed wild animal that has assumed a fighting position, then you release the bulldog and it meets the prey animal in the fight it is now inviting. But when we talk about being able to force the fight on an evasive wild animal, they leave a lot to be desired, and that is why bull-lurchers exist (and to an extent, bull terriers as well). Even bull lurchers can be found wanting in speed compared to many wild animals, and that is why 1/4 bull lurchers exist.

[Wyatt]

Jun 19, 2023 15:47:15 GMT Hardcastle said:

Well it is factually definitely stronger. The slowness could be an issue. I don't feel good about the prospect of a bulldog (and I mean a hardcore working bulldog) because it's just not as quick as I think you need to be to really keep pace with a wild animal. It is literally designed to lug a cornered bayed wild animal that has assumed a fighting position, then you release the bulldog and it meets the prey animal in the fight it is now inviting. But when we talk about being able to force the fight on an evasive wild animal, they leave a lot to be desired, and that is why bull-lurchers exist (and to an extent, bull terriers as well). Even bull lurchers can be found wanting in speed compared to many wild animals, and that is why 1/4 bull lurchers exist.

I don’t believe a Bulldog can beat a Mackenzie Valley Wolf at all. The only dogs I think that could beat a Mackenzie Valley Wolf are an Irish Wolfhound or Great Dane. Something strong but is the size of a wolf. 

Funnily enough Irish Wolfhounds actually worked with Irish wolves, hence their name, and Great Danes worked with Mackenzie Valley Wolves. Regardless both are similar enough, and i’ll go with them two. Oh, and LGD’s.

Like Bolushi pointed out, its wrong that Eurasian Wolves are automatically doomed with LGD’s. But I would think that a Mackenzie Valley Wolf due to their sizes would still give any Kangal or Anatolian Shepherd a hard time, but not be indefeatable. Usually this is why the LGD’s that go against wolves have size, strength and numbers. They’re practically compacted with everything they need to defeat a wolf.

I do acknowledge due to the Bulldogs strength, Bulldogs could hypothetically knock a wolf onto its back and maul it. But for the Bulldog to win everything would need to be perfect. Meaning, the wolf doesn’t get a bite in and the wolf is on its back where the bulldog can keep the wolf and have the advantage. But im not seeing this scenario happening.

I do believe a Bulldog is stronger to some degree, as bulldogs seem to have been bred for an advanced gripping bite and a want to subdue, where as wolves usually prefer gripping and subduing when hunting. With fighting, they seem to use a mix of all. Snap-bites, muzzle bites, neck bites and grappling bites. That gives the wolf the advantage since it seems to use a mix of everything when it fights as compared to the bulldog which would be more focused on the gripping bite more than anything.

But I still do not believe a Bulldog is stronger overall. Stronger is subjective, and I assume you’re meaning that the bulldog is dominant over the wolf here when it comes to overall body structure. To some level this is true, Bulldogs have been bred for gameness and durability. This ensures that humans have a perfect subduing dog. But this is not talking about hunting here, this is talking about fights. So generally, a bulldog would have more gameness and durability than a wolf in lets say hunting, but it all crashes when we talk about fights. I have never even heard of a bulldog beating a wolf, and the only time I have heard of them is some guys which have some backgrounds which aren’t reputable in some shape or form.