Musth
Ruminant
Posts: 141
|
Post by Musth on May 29, 2023 21:49:53 GMT
American Black Bear Sow 200lbs  Volkodav Male 190lbs  |
|
Musth
Ruminant
Posts: 141
|
Post by Musth on May 29, 2023 21:52:20 GMT
Some good footage of LGD dealing and physically engaging bears.
Apparently there was either a video or an account many many years ago where two kangals killed a 330lbs black bear. I’ll look to see if I can find anything about it.
|
|
Musth
Ruminant
Posts: 141
|
Post by Musth on May 30, 2023 5:28:42 GMT
Surprised this didn’t get more attention.
|
|
ophio
Ruminant
Posts: 230
|
Post by ophio on May 30, 2023 5:43:55 GMT
Surprised this didn’t get more attention. wanna tell us more about the volkodav. Imo black bears aren't too impressive especially a female one. Like this is their most impressive feat but i don't know anything about the volkodav but i doubt its stronger than a bear, even a relatively unimpressive black bear sow. Since we all favoured the same bear against a record breaking giant wolf for consistency,I'd favor the black bear although it will be close. I'd easily favor an asiatic black bear though |
|
|
|
Post by Hardcastle on May 30, 2023 6:46:49 GMT
I think dogs in general are actually surprisingly good at dealing with bears.
I don't know if killing a bear is a realistic outcome, which isn't to say it would be impossible, but it certainly shouldn't be expected. Bears are very difficult to kill, and dogs aren't great at efficiently killing things.
However, in real life things can be "beaten" without dying. The AVA community really loses touch with reality when it insists upon the "to the death" stipulation.
Bears are also very inefficient killers, and it seems to me dogs can often outmanuveur bears, even in a close-quarters engaged struggle, using their superior footwork, controlling bite-hold and squirreling out of the bear's indecisive attacks before taking too much damage.
Quite a few historical accounts describe dogs bettering bears, quite a few videos (like those above) show dogs giving bears a surprising amount of trouble.
It's not about being "stronger than a bear, because they aren't, but they are just something bears seem to struggle with. I think the combination of quickness, persistence, courageous aggression etc, can all be a bit overwhelming for a bear, which is used to being treated with more respect by other predators, and sloppily killing relatively immobile big ungulates that struggle to get up once toppled over. Dogs tend to slip out of the bears hugs and mauling attemps and then be biting them somewhere painfully and moving too quickly to be pinned down etc etc.
Again, death for the bear is very unlikely, so by strict AVA rules I'd still give it to the bear as being more likely to probably kill the dog than vice versa, but if it was just about dominance in the scuffle I'd feel pretty confident loosing many different kinds of dog on a 200 lbs black bear sow, or even considerably bigger bears.
I'd expect a hardened volvodov to give the black bear a lot of trouble. I don't know if it's optimal for the task, kind of gives the bear a bigger target to administer punishment too, which actually kind of works in the bear's favour in some ways. The volkovov won't be as squirrely or "slippery" as some other dogs, and may be liable to take on a bit of punishment in such a fight. Still, the flipside of that is it's strength and power will be pushing and pulling the bear off balance quite effectively, and even if it's not super mobile for a dog it is still more mobile and agile and quick than a bear.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 30, 2023 8:04:36 GMT
Wolves can kill black bears.
That shows where they are at in the midst of predators.
Take that, and we have the Volkdodav. Don’t know much about that dog but the weight advantage and apparent LGD history may give them an advantage. Since LGD’s are used to fending off predators.
I do agree though, bears are used to other predators, but thats grizzly bears. Usually just push vultures and crows and coyotes and wolves off a bison carcass. But here we have black bears which are way more skittish than grizzly bears, although it may be due to their habitat.
If this were a grizzly bear I believe the bear might stand a little chance but since this is a black bear ima go with the Volkodav here.
|
|
|
|
Post by Bolushi on May 30, 2023 9:45:48 GMT
Surprised this didn’t get more attention. Responded 3 times. Phone is stupid and bad. Anyway I give this one to the Volkodav fairly handily. Black bears are... not good at fighting. Volkodav would school it and should eventually put it down. |
|
ophio
Ruminant
Posts: 230
|
Post by ophio on May 30, 2023 13:34:56 GMT
Wolves can kill black bears. That shows where they are at in the midst of predators. Take that, and we have the Volkdodav. Don’t know much about that dog but the weight advantage and apparent LGD history may give them an advantage. Since LGD’s are used to fending off predators. I do agree though, bears are used to other predators, but thats grizzly bears. Usually just push vultures and crows and coyotes and wolves off a bison carcass. But here we have black bears which are way more skittish than grizzly bears, although it may be due to their habitat. If this were a grizzly bear I believe the bear might stand a little chance but since this is a black bear ima go with the Volkodav here. Wolves and black bears rarely kill one another. The results showed no negative trends for wolves or bears due to these interactions. Few instances of direct mortality to either species have been documented. Instances of wolves killing bears and bears killing wolves have been reported, but such events are rare and considered the exception. According to Mech (1981), wolves sometimes kill bears, but likely only young, old, or otherwise weakened bears. Paquet and Carbyn (1986) reported three cases of wolves digging up and killing cubs of hibernating black bears in Riding Mountain National Park in Manitoba, Canada but thought it was not a common occurrence as over 2000 wolf scats in the area did not contain any evidence of bear remains. Bears will also occasionally kill wolves as Joslin (1966), and Pimlott et al. (1969) reported in Ontario, Canada. In both instances, black bears were responsible for the deaths of individual wolves. According to Joslin (1966), a black bear killed a female wolf protecting her pups at a den site. In general, most reported interactions are stand-offs with serious confrontations taking place in defense of food or young. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 30, 2023 18:23:50 GMT
Wolves can kill black bears. That shows where they are at in the midst of predators. Take that, and we have the Volkdodav. Don’t know much about that dog but the weight advantage and apparent LGD history may give them an advantage. Since LGD’s are used to fending off predators. I do agree though, bears are used to other predators, but thats grizzly bears. Usually just push vultures and crows and coyotes and wolves off a bison carcass. But here we have black bears which are way more skittish than grizzly bears, although it may be due to their habitat. If this were a grizzly bear I believe the bear might stand a little chance but since this is a black bear ima go with the Volkodav here. Wolves and black bears rarely kill one another. The results showed no negative trends for wolves or bears due to these interactions. Few instances of direct mortality to either species have been documented. Instances of wolves killing bears and bears killing wolves have been reported, but such events are rare and considered the exception. According to Mech (1981), wolves sometimes kill bears, but likely only young, old, or otherwise weakened bears. Paquet and Carbyn (1986) reported three cases of wolves digging up and killing cubs of hibernating black bears in Riding Mountain National Park in Manitoba, Canada but thought it was not a common occurrence as over 2000 wolf scats in the area did not contain any evidence of bear remains. Bears will also occasionally kill wolves as Joslin (1966), and Pimlott et al. (1969) reported in Ontario, Canada. In both instances, black bears were responsible for the deaths of individual wolves. According to Joslin (1966), a black bear killed a female wolf protecting her pups at a den site. In general, most reported interactions are stand-offs with serious confrontations taking place in defense of food or young. Im still not choosing the black bear |
|
ophio
Ruminant
Posts: 230
|
Post by ophio on May 30, 2023 20:04:41 GMT
In general bears are kleptoparasites so they need to be able to dominate a carcass without taking up much damage from faster and more agile opponents. Sort of like souped up hyenas. Black bears really don't have many impressive kleptoparatism feats and it seems they lose to cougars more often than not
|
|
|
|
Post by Bolushi on May 30, 2023 20:17:10 GMT
In general bears are kleptoparasites so they need to be able to dominate a carcass without taking up much damage from faster and more agile opponents. Sort of like souped up hyenas. Black bears really don't have many impressive kleptoparatism feats and it seems they lose to cougars more often than not A cougar has little chance against a black bear. Black bears usurp cougars all the time. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 30, 2023 20:17:13 GMT
In general bears are kleptoparasites so they need to be able to dominate a carcass without taking up much damage from faster and more agile opponents. Sort of like souped up hyenas. Black bears really don't have many impressive kleptoparatism feats and it seems they lose to cougars more often than not Now this is agreeable. Black bears seem to not be good at kleptoparasiting despite bears using kleptoparasiting as their main form of nutrition. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 30, 2023 20:18:02 GMT
In general bears are kleptoparasites so they need to be able to dominate a carcass without taking up much damage from faster and more agile opponents. Sort of like souped up hyenas. Black bears really don't have many impressive kleptoparatism feats and it seems they lose to cougars more often than not A cougar has little chance against a black bear. Black bears usurp cougars all the time. Any bear is gonna give a cougar a hard time. |
|
ophio
Ruminant
Posts: 230
|
Post by ophio on May 30, 2023 20:26:31 GMT
A cougar has little chance against a black bear. Black bears usurp cougars all the time. Any bear is gonna give a cougar a hard time. except female cougars have killed black bears multiple times. I think they killed spectacle bears too. Do you have any accounts of a black bear displacing a cougar? I honestly searched for some but couldn't find any |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 30, 2023 20:31:38 GMT
|
|
