American Alligator vs Tiger shark

[oldgreengrolar]

Mar 3, 2023 14:13:42 GMT @ling said:

Mar 3, 2023 13:45:06 GMT oldgreengrolar said:

I remember Tundra Eagle supports Croc over a great white shark.I wonder what he will say here .

Who is Tundra Eagle? And I'm fine with people favouring salties over whites, but realistically the shark will always win. Crocodiles have problems with killing buffaloes, while sharks can kill 2,000kg+ seals with ease. You could say that the croc's land disadvantage is the reason behind this, but iirc Gaurus on carnivora posted a video of a nile croc failing to kill a bull buffalo in deep water, even after it had just fought a rival.

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Tundra Eagle is an old poster from the late AVA. Hardcastle knows him too.

Anyway, I favour the great white shark over the Croc but I know Tundra’s reasons for favouring the saltie.

[Hardcastle]

Mar 3, 2023 14:22:36 GMT @ling said:

Mar 3, 2023 14:20:11 GMT Hardcastle said:

I know, that's what I was saying. You just used the excuse that one time a croc struggled with a buffalo (which isn't shameful at all), and I'm saying that's a bad excuse, because sharks have struggled with far less.

Yeah but at the end of the day when both predators fully commit to trying to kill their prey the shark is more impressive - as in, can kill more dangerous prey.

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Yeah but very different techniques. Sharks use their "hit and run and wait" technique on larger prey. Crocs have to actually grapple and overcome their prey to take it out.
What this means is, in a direct fight, we have to strip away those upper feats of the sharks because they aren't really relevant to a direct engagement between the two combatants. Unless we are going to allow a "hit and run and wait" in the hypothetical fight.
It's similar in a way to talking about komodo dragon predation on buffaloes. Yes they do prey on buffalos, but it's not an accurate guage of their actual grapple and kill ability because they "hit and run and wait". In some respect this is relevant to wolves as well. Far superior predation feats to pumas, but pumas actually control and bring down their prey, wolves harass it to within an inch of it's life and then eventually when it's on death's door they kill. Still impressive and cool, but won't translate to a direct conflict with a puma. The puma will probably overpower and pin down the wolf and kill it, because despite the wolf's superior predatory feats on paper, the puma actually has the superior ability grab and control a large powerful animal.

Now... I'm not saying the croc has superior ability necessarily, BUT it's much closer than the hit and run feats of sharks would suggest, we need to know what is their limit for full immediate engaged domination. I posted a video of a shark destroying a small seal in one go while semi-beached. That was a showcasing of actual ability that could translate to a hypothetical fight. It just pwned that seal in engaged combat. Hit and run doesn't really showcase combat capacity. Unless instead of a "fight" we imagine more like a "battle" kind of contest in open water over the course of a day where hiding and planning and surprise attacks and etc could be utilised, where such strategies could be allowed then I think the feats of sharks bleeding out whales by their tail flukes would be a great point. In the typical AVA matchup I don't really think so.

[Deleted]

Mar 3, 2023 14:41:18 GMT Hardcastle said:

Mar 3, 2023 14:22:36 GMT @ling said:

Yeah but at the end of the day when both predators fully commit to trying to kill their prey the shark is more impressive - as in, can kill more dangerous prey.

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Yeah but very different techniques. Sharks use their "hit and run and wait" technique on larger prey. Crocs have to actually grapple and overcome their prey to take it out.
What this means is, in a direct fight, we have to strip away those upper feats of the sharks because they aren't really relevant to a direct engagement between the two combatants. Unless we are going to allow a "hit and run and wait" in the hypothetical fight.
It's similar in a way to talking about komodo dragon predation on buffaloes. Yes they do prey on buffalos, but it's not an accurate guage of their actual grapple and kill ability because they "hit and run and wait". In some respect this is relevant to wolves as well. Far superior predation feats to pumas, but pumas actually control and bring down their prey, wolves harass it to within an inch of it's life and then eventually when it's on death's door they kill. Still impressive and cool, but won't translate to a direct conflict with a puma. The puma will probably overpower and pin down the wolf and kill it, because despite the wolf's superior predatory feats on paper, the puma actually has the superior ability grab and control a large powerful animal.

Now... I'm not saying the croc has superior ability necessarily, BUT it's much closer than the hit and run feats of sharks would suggest, we need to know what is their limit for full immediate engaged domination. I posted a video of a shark destroying a small seal in one go while semi-beached. That was a showcasing of actual ability that could translate to a hypothetical fight. It just pwned that seal in engaged combat. Hit and run doesn't really showcase combat capacity. Unless instead of a "fight" we imagine more like a "battle" kind of contest in open water over the course of a day where hiding and planning and surprise attacks and etc could be utilised, where such strategies could be allowed then I think the feats of sharks bleeding out whales by their tail flukes would be a great point. In the typical AVA matchup I don't really think so.

How is the hit and run tactic hypothetical? In a realistic encounter the shark would see the crocodile as prey (assumptionally) and would just rip it to shreds before the crocodile could react. Unless you want both contestants to be 'bloodlusted' or something. Komodo dragons have venom and bacteria. It's far less impressive than a shark's serrated teeth. Buffaloes are relatively mid-tier when it comes to intelligence, sometimes they lose battles they really shouldn't be losing, besides, the buffaloes are usually unaware of the lizard's presence and/or don't seem them as being necessarily a huge threat. Elephant seals on the other hand, often are aware of the great white's presence and usually try to get away from them or play smart.

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[Hardcastle]

Vast majority of prey targetted by sharks are absolutely not aware of their presence. They are largely ambush predators. Unfortunately, they are the cats of the sea. There are exceptions but they have ambush on their minds, that's their ideal field of expertise.

Having said that, they still might monster and destroy their prey after their ambush strike, but sometimes they don't, and this is usually the case with their larger more impressive prey. This is where we get the ambush hit, big chomp, big hole... wait... prey bleeds out and gets weak and helpless, then finish. It's cool, don't get me wrong. We just usually don't allow for such long-term strategising used in AVA matchups. We don't say "well the wolf could just bite the puma in the thigh, then run away, then come back next tuesday after the infection has weakened the cat and then do it again, and then in april it could return and.." no we typically imagine basically a UFC fight where they have to really go at it, engaged in close quarter combat. Discussing some tactical military-esque chess match of wits might even be more in line with a likely reality, it's just not what we usually talk about.

In the contest we usually talk about the big ambush chomp and wait while the opponent bleeds out technique is essentially not on the table. So talking about the mass of the animals conquered with that technique and noting they're bigger better animals than what crocs take with their direct engaged grappling technique, is kind of glossing over the fact we are expecting a direct engaged grappling fight here.
I see it as very similar to noting a Komodo dragon can kill buffalo and then acting like this means the komodo dragon is at that level of direct engaged fighting prowess. Really conveniently ignoring it doesn't actually monster down buffalo with it's power and ability in engaged close quarter combat. It uses tactics and plays a prolonged chess game with the buffalo. Very cool, but doesn't translate to it's fighting ability in an ava scenario (actually it's not cool, in the komodo dragon's case IMO. I think it's weak and lame what they do, but beside the point).

Shark might be over croc anyway, I'm just saying the whale feats are not evidence of that, they have to be scratched. Any "hit and run and wait" feats do. Unless we change the contest.

"put a shark and a croc in a bay that is 3 square miles in size, with deep zones and shallow reefs and various caves and other forms of coverage, they have 48 hours to try and hunt eachother down and emerge victorious"
^ then, in this survivor style contest, absolutely. The Whale tail bloodletting feats are excellent evidence for the shark.\

Maybe we should have been doing contests like that all along, but no, we've been doing "pit fight" equivalent contests. Face to face, go at it fights.

[Deleted]

Mar 3, 2023 15:06:39 GMT Hardcastle said:

Vast majority of prey targetted by sharks are absolutely not aware of their presence. They are largely ambush predators. Unfortunately, they are the cats of the sea. There are exceptions but they have ambush on their minds, that's their ideal field of expertise.

Having said that, they still might monster and destroy their prey after their ambush strike, but sometimes they don't, and this is usually the case with their larger more impressive prey. This is where we get the ambush hit, big chomp, big hole... wait... prey bleeds out and gets weak and helpless, then finish. It's cool, don't get me wrong. We just usually don't allow for such long-term strategising used in AVA matchups. We don't say "well the wolf could just bite the puma in the thigh, then run away, then come back next tuesday after the infection has weakened the cat and then do it again, and then in april it could return and.." no we typically imagine basically a UFC fight where they have to really go at it, engaged in close quarter combat. Discussing some tactical military-esque chess match of wits might even be more in line with a likely reality, it's just not what we usually talk about.

In the contest we usually talk about the big ambush chomp and wait while the opponent bleeds out technique is essentially not on the table. So talking about the mass of the animals conquered with that technique and noting they're bigger better animals than what crocs take with their direct engaged grappling technique, is kind of glossing over the fact we are expecting a direct engaged grappling fight here.
I see it as very similar to noting a Komodo dragon can kill buffalo and then acting like this means the komodo dragon is at that level of direct engaged fighting prowess. Really conveniently ignoring it doesn't actually monster down buffalo with it's power and ability in engaged close quarter combat. It uses tactics and plays a prolonged chess game with the buffalo. Very cool, but doesn't translate to it's fighting ability in an ava scenario (actually it's not cool, in the komodo dragon's case IMO. I think it's weak and lame what they do, but beside the point).

Shark might be over croc anyway, I'm just saying the whale feats are not evidence of that, they have to be scratched. Any "hit and run and wait" feats do. Unless we change the contest.

"put a shark and a croc in a bay that is 3 square miles in size, with deep zones and shallow reefs and various caves and other forms of coverage, they have 48 hours to try and hunt eachother down and emerge victorious"
^ then, in this survivor style contest, absolutely. The Whale tail bloodletting feats are excellent evidence for the shark.\

Maybe we should have been doing contests like that all along, but no, we've been doing "pit fight" equivalent contests. Face to face, go at it fights.

You're making the shark even more of a monster. A bloodlusted prey-thirsty 2,200kg chainsaw-toothed torpedo-shaped meat-filled whale-killer that's assumptionally completely focused on destroying its contestant? Rip croc.

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